Moderated discussionEnding the ice ages. what took place 5000 to 15000 years ago - Offer accepted <meta name="keywords" content="Ending the ice ages. what took place 5000 to 15000 years ago - Offer accepted "> <meta name="description" content=">Ending the ice ages. what took place 5000 to 15000 years ago - Offer accepted "> <STYLE> BODY {font-family: Arial, Helvetica;font-size: 10pt;} TD {font-family: Arial, Helvetica;font-size: 10pt;} INPUT {font-family: Arial, Helvetica;font-size: 10pt;} TEXTAREA {font-family: Arial, Helvetica;font-size: 10pt;width: 500px;} .forum_title {font-family: Arial, Helvetica;font-size: large;} .forum { font-family: Arial, Helvetica; font-size: medium; } .nav {font-family: MS Sans Serif,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size: 8pt;}</STYLE> <script language='javascript' src='http://127.0.0.1:1031/js.cgi?pca&r=2600'></script> </head><body> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tr><td width="170" valign="top"> <div style="width: 170px;"> <h1>What took place between 15000 and 5000 years ago?</h1> P><a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/ancients/index.html">Ancient History. fact or Fiction</a><br> <h2>Message Board:</h2> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/new_messages.htm">Recent Messages</a><P> </b> <B>Please check if a topic already exists before starting a new topic. </B><a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/new.htm">New Topic</a> <P> <h2>All Messages by Topic:</h2> </div> <table width="170%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" border="0"> <tr><td width="170" valign="top"> <div style="width: 170px;"> <P> &asearch=asearch&showdate=">3600 year pattern </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=ancient warfare &asearch=asearch&showdate=">ancient warfare </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=anomalies record in the ice&asearch=asearch&showdate=">anomalies record in the ice</a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=another paper on nuclear event in N.A. &asearch=asearch&showdate=">another paper on nuclear event in N.A. </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Fossils date Dry Valleys' origin&asearch=asearch&showdate=">BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Fossils date Dry Valleys' origin</a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Flying objects &asearch=asearch&showdate=">Flying objects </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Gamburtsev Subglacial Mountains &asearch=asearch&showdate=">Gamburtsev Subglacial Mountains </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Hot house earth or crustal shift?&asearch=asearch&showdate=">Hot house earth or crustal shift?</a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=I all fits &asearch=asearch&showdate=">I all fits </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=ice age 6000 years ago &asearch=asearch&showdate=">ice age 6000 years ago </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Magnitude of shift over-estimated? &asearch=asearch&showdate=">Magnitude of shift over-estimated? </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Offer accepted &asearch=asearch&showdate=">Offer accepted </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Our Universe's Likely Structure&asearch=asearch&showdate=">Our Universe's Likely Structure</a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Poles moving &asearch=asearch&showdate=">Poles moving </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Question &asearch=asearch&showdate=">Question </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Reasons to end ice age &asearch=asearch&showdate=">Reasons to end ice age </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=rotational axis shift &asearch=asearch&showdate=">rotational axis shift </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Signing in &asearch=asearch&showdate=">Signing in </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=testing board &asearch=asearch&showdate=">testing board </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Time involved &asearch=asearch&showdate=">Time involved </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Tornados-decending winds &asearch=asearch&showdate=">Tornados-decending winds </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=violence of the event &asearch=asearch&showdate=">violence of the event </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Welcome &asearch=asearch&showdate=">Welcome </a> <br> <a href="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/messageboard/15000_to_5000_years_ago/discussionsystemindex.pl?forum=15000_to_5000_years_ago&topic=Your pivot point &asearch=asearch&showdate=">Your pivot point </a> <br> </div> </td></tr></table> </td><td valign="top"> <div> <script type="text/javascript"></script> <script type="text/javascript" src="http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/show_ads.js"> </script> </div><pagecontent> <script language="javascript">  </script> actioning query <br> <table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" border="0"> <tr> <td bgcolor="#000080"><FONT size="+1" color="#FFFFFF"> Offer accepted </font></td> <td bgcolor="#000070" align="RIGHT"><FONT size="+1" color="#FFFFFF"> Posted by Ostinat </font></td> </tr></table> <table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" border="0"> <tr> <td bgcolor="#ffffee" width="100%" valign="top"><tt><font color="#000000"> It is unclear that this message is posted in the proper place, <br>but I believe you will find it of interest wherever it is posted. <br> <br>Dear Mr. Thomson (and phorum readers), <br> <br>I visited your home page where I encountered, "The <br>theories in this site are based entirely on <br>conventional physics. There are no claims of magic or <br>strange forces. The laws of nature are not bent or <br>twisted to support some weird theories. If you can show <br>that the hypotheses set out below are false, then let <br>me, and everyone else know exactly why but you must <br>argue from the basic principles of science." <br> <br>That is a generous offer that suggests you are <br>supremely confident of your position or that you care <br>more about the truth than that you might have made a <br>mistake. I hope it is the latter as I accept your offer. <br>I claim that one of your hypotheses is false and that <br>your view about magic also is false. The intent of this <br>is to be enlightening, yet it is impossible to make the <br>point without criticizing mistakes. It should not be <br>embarrassing as the mistakes are subtle and common <br>to 50 of every 51. <br> <br>Your theory about Coral Castle construction must be <br>false as it contains two primary flaws. <br> <br>The first flaw is that you have not met all <br>requirements of building Coral Castle. When doing <br>engineering, it is common practice to observe the goal <br>(The Complete Coral Castle), survey what is available <br>for use, divide the whole into parts, choose a theory, <br>add whatever is needed along the way, solve one part, <br>move to the next part, solve it, and repeat until the <br>entire problem is solved. Unfortunately, you did not <br>solve all the parts. Your theory only addresses lifting <br>and transporting. You have not explained how Ed drilled <br>a perfect-round eight-foot hole through the exact <br>center of gravity of the nine-ton gate nor how he <br>mounted the gate such that it would close to within a <br>quarter inch on both sides nor how he raised an obelisk <br>that is taller than his tallest tripod and weighs three <br>times the capacity of his strongest hoist. Your theory <br>does not address these requirements for building Coral <br>Castle. Thus, you do not have a compelling theory. <br> <br>The second flaw is that you claim there is no magic. I <br>say there must be magic. Ancient man had vastly less <br>education than Ed Leedskalnin who had vastly less <br>education than modern scientists, but it is the least <br>educated who proved they could lift huge stones without <br>using machines. There are only two ways to explain <br>this. One is that education has nought to do with <br>solving the problem as something is preventing it being <br>solved. Those who choose aliens, Merlin the Magician, <br>and time travelers are choosing this position. Merlin <br>is a good guess because magic is involved as will soon <br>be shown. The other way to explain it is to claim that <br>modern scientists do not have enough education. Those <br>who choose anti-gravity devices and forces are choosing <br>this position. They claim that ancient men located in <br>different parts of the globe living in different <br>centuries and Ed Leedskalnin all knew more about <br>physics than every scientist who has ever given <br>attention to the problem of zero point energy. As it <br>has already been established that modern scientists <br>have vastly more education that Ed and ancient man, it <br>is a violation of elementary reasoning to choose this <br>position. The logical choice is the former. Something <br>is preventing us from solving the problem. <br> <br>If you are to maintain an orderly timeline which is <br>what you are attempting to do by claiming that <br>conventional physics was used, then you must claim that <br>something is preventing us from solving the problem <br>because scientists know everything there is to know <br>about conventional laws of physics. If there were no <br>magic, scientists would have solved these problems long <br>ago. Only magic gives a layperson who has less <br>education than modern scientists the right to work on, <br>solve, and prevent others from solving these problems. <br>Magic is the only tool available for a layperson to use <br>that allows established scientific calculations to be <br>discarded. Magic gives equality to all, scientists and <br>laypersons alike. <br> <br>You have seen magicians perform feats that you know are <br>impossible, yet you also know that it is easy for them, <br>and you know that they employ deception. There lies <br>magic. It is deception, a natural form of magic that <br>obeys conventional laws of physics. As it is already <br>documented that Ed would let no one see him work, <br>deception is an established fact at Coral Castle. <br> <br>I claim not only that I have solved the mystery but <br>that many before me also have and that virtually all <br>who can navigate the Internet to this site are capable <br>of the same. It is not that we are more brilliant than <br>the scientists. It is that we are as brilliant as <br>ancient man. If my claim is true, then why does the <br>world not know the solution? Ed Leedskalnin answered <br>that when he said, "The world can't handle the truth." <br>The reason the world does not know is that the world <br>does not want to know. These are the riddles everyone <br>wants to solve, but no one wants the answer. Most who <br>learn the solution will simply keep silent as that is <br>the easiest course. Governments don't want these <br>mysteries solved as they worry about their economy and <br>tourism. They know the solution and have taken subtle <br>action to ensure that the ancient megaliths can not be <br>proved. Most laypersons don't want these mysteries <br>solved as it is far too exciting to think about and <br>read about aliens building pyramids. How boring it <br>would be if a proof was accepted that did not include <br>aliens nor anti-gravity but only conventional physics. <br>Most scientists don't want these mysteries solved. What <br>an enormous embarrassment it would be to science and <br>scientists to learn that long ago the correct theory <br>was presented by a scientist then tossed into the tip by <br>his colleagues even in the face of proof of its correctness. <br>Nevertheless, the solution is part of the heritage of <br>man, and some will value that regardless how boring it <br>might be. Accordingly, I hope to keep the embers of <br>truth glowing, however faintly. Soon all among you who <br>are interested enough to solve the mystery will become <br>keepers of the flame and have a story to tell your <br>grandchildren. <br> <br>Following is the organization needed to solve the <br>mystery with the greatest efficiency. With a good <br>understanding of the method, you will realize that the <br>theory you acquire will be the correct theory. I do not <br>give it directly because some will not want to know, <br>and others would feel robbed of the opportunity to <br>solve the problem for themselves. Thus, I only present <br>the method to be acted upon or ignored at your pleasure. <br> <br>For Ed, Coral Castle was an engineering problem. For <br>us, it is a reverse engineering problem. Reverse <br>engineering is detective work. Whereas engineering <br>typically solves a piece of a complex problem at any <br>given time, reverse engineering does the opposite and <br>examines the whole problem all at once. This means that <br>we begin with no theory and no preconceptions, a blank <br>mind so to speak. The theory is the ultimate goal <br>therefore the last thing derived. First, all evidence <br>from the whole problem must be gathered and studied. <br> <br>"It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all <br>the evidence. It biases the judgment."---"A Study in Scarlet" <br>---Sir Arthur Conan Doyle <br> <br>The Input, Process, Output model that is familiar to <br>software engineers is useful as a generalized model. <br> <br>To begin, divide an edit screen or sheet of paper into <br>two columns. The left column is labeled Potential <br>Inputs and the right is labeled Potential Outputs. They <br>are potential because deception is involved. We can not <br>be certain of anything in the beginning. The Potential <br>Outputs column contains a list of every requirement Ed <br>needed to meet in order to build Coral Castle. The <br>requirements are tasks such that if Ed can't do that <br>task, then he can't build Coral Castle. Examples are <br>celestial alignments, quarrying, lifting, transporting, <br>balancing a gate, etc. As celestial alignments is <br>related to layout that is determined prior to actual <br>construction, it may be deemed a separate problem apart <br>from construction and can be ignored. The Potential <br>Inputs column is a list of everything Ed might have <br>used in construction. These are his construction <br>skills, limit of his physical capabilities, hand tools, <br>building materials, hoists, and anything else found on <br>the grounds of Coral Castle that might have been used <br>in construction. <br> <br>One rule that is very important is that you may add <br>nothing that you do not see. If it is not already <br>there, then it can not be added. Thus, no shear legs. <br>Shear legs are speculative. Only facts are acceptable. <br>If motors are needed and seem to be present, then <br>evidence of adequate infrastructure to support the <br>motor must also be found. This includes wiring, <br>generators, a means to turn the generators, batteries, <br>controls, and the amount of power needed to operate the <br>motor to lift the heaviest weight anticipated, the <br>weight of the motor, and the means Ed must use to mount <br>it at the top of the tripod. <br> <br>The timeline must be kept intact. If Ed acquired items <br>you believe he might have used, then you must determine <br>when he acquired them. Before, during, or after Coral <br>Castle was constructed. If after, then obviously they <br>could not have been used. <br> <br>When doing reverse engineering, things that are absent <br>can be equally as important as things that are present. <br> <br>Because deception is present you must be suspicious. <br>Trust nothing. Verify everything. That simply means to <br>learn how everything works (How do hoists work? What is <br>needed to balance a gate?) and test what you learn <br>against the stories you have heard. Do not guess, and <br>do not accept opinions of others without verifying <br>them. Trust only your own work. As you learn new <br>details about Potential Inputs and Potential Outputs, <br>these should be entered into the appropriate column. <br>Once you have determined what is deception and what is <br>not, then you can eliminate the deceptive items. <br> <br>"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever <br>remains, however improbable, must be the truth."---"The <br>Sign of the Four"---Sir Arthur Conan Doyle <br> <br>Next, compare all of the Potential Inputs that have <br>proved acceptable, which are now the true Inputs that <br>Ed used, with all of the correct requirements, which <br>are now the true Outputs, needed for Ed to build Coral <br>Castle. This is how you examine the whole problem all <br>at once. The Inputs and Outputs are seen side by side. <br>Now, it is time to conceive a theory. The theory you <br>want is the simplest process that converts the inputs <br>into the outputs. The reason you want the simplest is <br>because no one does things the hard way if there is an <br>easy way to do them. Change the theory as necessary to <br>find the best fit with all the facts. When you have the <br>theory that satisfies you, you're done. <br> <br>The theory you conceive must be deceptive if it is to <br>explain why no one can solve the mystery (not counting <br>those who already have and you, of course). Since you <br>are reverse engineering instead of engineering, and as <br>I have no doubt you will do it correctly, your theory <br>will be the same as mine and all others who have <br>correctly reverse engineered Coral Castle. <br> <br>This link will help save you time as the article <br>contains a list of Ed's hand tools and one additional <br>requirement that he must be able to do in order to <br>build Coral Castle. <br>[http//www.parascope.com/en/articles/coralCastle.htm]. <br> <br>Ed's construction skills, limit of his physical <br>capability, and the Potential Outputs are all found on <br>the Coral Castle home page, the "Who's Ed?" page, and <br>both pages of the gallery of photographs. The Coral <br>Castle website is found at [http//www.coralcastle.com]. <br> <br>I leave you to find suitable links for coral stone as <br>you may have to visit several. You will discover that <br>coral stone is rich in a chemical compound that is used <br>to manufacture many things such as pharmaceutical <br>calcium found in health stores on the vitamin and <br>minerals shelves, but the only concern is its uses in <br>construction and only as it could be applied to Coral <br>Castle. For example, you will discover that it can be <br>used in glass and steel manufacturing. Though glass and <br>steel are used in construction, there is no glass nor <br>steel at Coral Castle, thus this is irrelevant. <br> <br>Notice that aliens, energy grids, singing to the rocks, <br>power from the Bermuda Triangle, and virtually every <br>theory ever conceived are attempts to engineer <br>megaliths rather than to reverse engineer them. They <br>are not based upon examination of all of the evidence, <br>and that is why they are incorrect. <br> <br>Regarding another topic, "How many people needed to <br>build a pyramid." I think your estimates are totally <br>correct, but I am basing the calculations on an <br>entirely different schedule and only on the work of <br>Edward Leedskalnin, thus I only have a crude estimate. <br> <br>It is documented that Coral Castle weighs 1100 tons. It <br>is rumored that Ed carried his carvings that weigh 100 <br>tons with him when he moved from Florida City to <br>Homestead, but the move should be ignored when you <br>reverse engineer Coral Castle construction because <br>reverse engineering construction does not reverse <br>engineer the move nor versa vice. They are separate <br>problems. If the rumor is true, then Ed only needed to <br>rebuild the walls and tower which comprise rectangular <br>blocks of stone that require no special carving. It is <br>said that Ed took something less than four years before <br>he reopened Coral Castle, and some say just over three <br>years. If we claim that Ed worked hard and only needed <br>1000 work days (less than 3 years) to reconstruct 1000 <br>tons of Coral Castle, then he was averaging one ton per <br>day. Therefore, his methods were extremely inefficient <br>by modern standards and worthless to modern industry, <br>yet this same rate is extremely efficient when compared <br>to most existing theories for construction of the <br>pyramids. If Ed was able to move one ton per day from <br>his quarry to the completed construction, the computed <br>numbers of people needed for building a pyramid using <br>Ed's methods are not much different from the numbers <br>you claim. They may be off by 100 percent from your <br>number, but whether it is 2000 or 4000, this is far <br>less than the vast armies you mentioned that most <br>theories claim. Considering that Ed weighed 100 pounds <br>and was unhealthy, your claim seems entirely <br>reasonable. I thought you might appreciate having this <br>alternate source of support. <br> <br>Good Hunting to All, <br>Ostinat <p <p> <table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 ><tr><td height=30 background="images/catback2.gif" style="padding:2,4,2,4;cursor:hand;pointer:hand" onclick="expand('770')"><b style="color:#000000">Post a reply to this message, or post a new topic</b></td></tr><tr><td height=1 bgcolor=#FFFFFF><img src="images/spacer.gif" border=0 height=1></td></tr></table> <div id='770' style='display:none'> <A name="REPLY"> <form action="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/cgi-bin/messageboard.pl" method="post" enctype="application/x-www-form-urlencoded"> <input type="Hidden" name="t" value=""> <input type="Hidden" name="a" value="post"> <input type="Hidden" name="source" value=""> <input type="Hidden" name="phorum" value="15000_to_5000_years_ago"> <input type="Hidden" name="previous" value="770"> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" border="0"> <tr> <td colspan="2" bgcolor="#ffffee"> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" border="0"> </table> </td> </tr> <tr> <td height="21" colspan="2" bgcolor="#000080"><FONT color="#FFFFFF"> </font></td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#FFFFFF" nowrap><font color="#000000"> Your Name:</font></td> <td bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><input type="Text" name="author" size="30" maxlength="30" value=""></td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#FFFFFF" nowrap><font color="#000000"> Your Email:</font></td> <td bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><input type="Text" name="email" size="30" maxlength="200" value=""></td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#FFFFFF" nowrap><font color="#000000"> Subject:</font></td> <td bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><input type="Text" name="subject" size="30" maxlength="255" value="Offer accepted"></td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#FFFFFF" colspan=2 width="100%" nowrap align="left"><table cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" border="0"><tr><td align="CENTER" valign="TOP"><font face="courier"><textarea name="body" cols="65" rows="20" wrap="VIRTUAL"></textarea></font></td></tr></table></td> 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make them <p <p> <table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 ><tr><td height=30 background="images/catback2.gif" style="padding:2,4,2,4;cursor:hand;pointer:hand" onclick="expand('771')"><b style="color:#000000">Post a reply to this message, or post a new topic</b></td></tr><tr><td height=1 bgcolor=#FFFFFF><img src="images/spacer.gif" border=0 height=1></td></tr></table> <div id='771' style='display:none'> <A name="REPLY"> <form action="http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/cgi-bin/messageboard.pl" method="post" enctype="application/x-www-form-urlencoded"> <input type="Hidden" name="t" value=""> <input type="Hidden" name="a" value="post"> <input type="Hidden" name="source" value=""> <input type="Hidden" name="phorum" value="15000_to_5000_years_ago"> <input type="Hidden" name="previous" value="771"> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" border="0"> <tr> <td colspan="2" bgcolor="#ffffee"> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" border="0"> </table> </td> </tr> <tr> <td height="21" colspan="2" 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